oil change

[iceman]

Well I got a filter cross referenced from the K and N posted .It's a Wix 51348.

I picked up a gallon of Rotella full synthetic oil that I use in all my bikes.

Here's the problem,I go to try <after a long ride to warm everything up >to back out the 6mm oil plug and just like my Aprilia it sucks to get out and actually

decided it wasn't coming out.I wonder why these type of plugs are used ? all US cars use a normal bolt with a head on it !!

On my last laptop I had a bookmarked maker of replacement plugs that I got off the Aprilia forum for $20 this becomes a non issue and when I get this out I will get an after market one with a Bolt HEAD on it.

[boilermaker]

John
I think that you will find that there are two reasons for using "internally wrenching" plugs for the sump on some motorcycles. One being that the manufacturer does not trust joe public not to overload an "external hexagon" (bolt head) type plug. The other is that most dealer mechanics use what is now known as a "sump plug key" (glorified allen key) that fits directly in to a socket set ratchet and or a torque wrench. However, like you I do not allow such crap to get in my way and made up a hexagon headed plug for myself, this also allows me to use plain (annealed ) Copper or Dowty typesealing washer. By the way is that the same Rotella oil as made by shell for Deisel applications?
George

[iceman]

Hi George,yes made by Shell.Cheap at $20 for a gallon.Looks like this over here.

[boilermaker]

John
You are dead right about it being cheap, its about double that over here. At 5W on the thin end of the viscosity range its a little thin (MZ spec 10W min) and it has a very high detergent content, (smells soapy) on the other hand it can cope with some very high (deisel type) bearing loads without succumbing to shear problems. Had a friend who used to race Laverdas on it, reckoned that it was ok to use in a new, Partly worn, or re-built engine but was bad news in a well-worn one as it tended to scour bearings. One thing you may have noticed is that it turns black quite quickly, this is evidence of its ability to hold debris in suspension.
George

[iceman]

George,I will have to search to find it but I read an article from and industry insider on a forum and basically it said because everyone got use to there being two numbers years ago before full synthetic that the manufactures added the first on the synthetic but it really has no meaning.

I will try to dig it up,it sucks when you change computers and can't get bookmarks back.At the very least it will be fine when November,December and January come around...John

[iceman]

John
You are dead right about it being cheap, its about double that over here. At 5W on the thin end of the viscosity range its a little thin (MZ spec 10W min) and it has a very high detergent content, (smells soapy) on the other hand it can cope with some very high (deisel type) bearing loads without succumbing to shear problems. Had a friend who used to race Laverdas on it, reckoned that it was ok to use in a new, Partly worn, or re-built engine but was bad news in a well-worn one as it tended to scour bearings. One thing you may have noticed is that it turns black quite quickly, this is evidence of its ability to hold debris in suspension.
George

I found it.This is just a quote from a very large writeup.Everyone will have different thoughts on this I'm sure.I can search further and find the whole thread if anyone wants me to now that I have the user name of who posted it.Do I believe everything I read online,of course not but like I said this guy is in the Business and sounds like he knows what he's talking about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CETME View Post
If its a full synthetic, the numbers are mostly a marketing ploy.

A full synthetic 10w50 or a 15w50 is essentially a 50 weight oil that has such excellent thermal stability that they don't have to do anything to it. They have pour points far lower than conventional oils and could be labeled just about anything. They could label it a 0w50 or a 10w50 or a 20w50, and it would be valid.

a conventional oil on the other hand, starts off as the first number, a 5w30 is a 5 weight oil with Viscosity improvers added to make it act like a 30 weight would at 100Celsius. These viscosity improvers, VI from now on, do break down with time and after a few thousand miles, your 5w30 is more like a 5w20.

Fully synthetic oils are so temperature stable that they dont have VI or very little of it.

You can use any Xw50 oil you want (X being any number) if its full synthetic.

[boilermaker]

John
Thanks for the informative post re oil. I have a problem with the authors statement re application of a "meaningless numbers" to something as important as an oil. As you probably know, in the U.S. any lubricating oil produced or imported has to come up to standards laid down by the American Petroleum Institute and the US Government MIL specs. (We use the API specs here in the UK) These standards relate not only to composition but also to description. I take the authors point re the flexibility of synthetic lubricants but for critical applications a more definate description should be applied. We as motorcyclists share with pilots the certainty that you are going to possibly kiss your ass goodby should your engine lock up. I will consult an old friend who is a retired Petroleum Chemist (and motorcyclist) and get back to you. I feel that this is an important issue.

[johnny2tents]

Good Morning from a sunny Galway!
Have not come across a multigrade Rotella yet in the UK. I use the recommended Shell Rotella 40 in the Norton Rotary.
It has marine and diesel engine applications. It has a low ash content when burnt in the rotary/two stroke cycle and does not cause plug fouling.
I guess the brand names get used for different US/UK/worldmarket applications.
I suppose we will only get to find out how good the various oils are when we get to do an engine strip?
I use the red/purple coloured 10w/50 fully synthetic Silkolene as recommended in my MZ handbook which I change at 3000 mile intervals. Interestingly enough, the bike as delivered had a plain/standard coloured oil, and bikes serviced by dealers I've seen have the same. So some dealers were not following the 2005/2006 handbook recommendations. (Invariably it's the best price they can get on a 205 litre drum that drives the thinking?)
Am very interested in the oil debate as I am rebuiding a Douglas 350 that was last raced in the 1960's. The engine has been modified with plain main and big end bearings. As this engine was reputed to have run at 10,000 rpm, I am keen to find the best oil to minimise mechanical disasters. I was thing of trying Agip 10W/60 fully synthetic racing for this application which can be bought for UK £30 (4 litres) Regards J2T

[iceman]

Another post from CTME from the thread about oil.

Well,

Initially, as we all know, we had single conventional grade oils, such as 30, 40, 50, etc weights.

The problem with these oils, as you can imagine, is that they have poor cold weather properties. Viscosity is the thickness of the oil, and is the inverse of temperature. The warmer the oil gets, the thinner it gets. The colder it gets, the thicker, or more viscous it gets.

So multi-grade oils were invented. A 10w30 conventional oil is a 10 weight base stock. A straight 10 weight oil is much thinner at 100 degrees than a straight 30 weight. So Viscosity Improvers are added (VI's.) VI's are basically polymer compounds that expand when heated. This prevents the 10 weight oil from thinning so much. It allows this 10 weight oil to ACT like a 30 weight oil would at temperature. This allows the benefit of a 10 weight oil during colder temperatures, and startup, yet have the benefit of a 30 weight once at operating temperature. Keep in mind that oil always thins as temperature goes up, but the rate at which it thins can be controlled by VI's.

VI's though, are not perfect. They degrade rather quickly, especially in high heat, or high stress situations, such as turbo chargers or motorcycle transmissions, where the gears smash the oil. The degradation of the VI's is called oil shear. This means that a 10w30 is more stable and longer lasting than a 5w30 because it has less VI's in it, since it already starts off as a heavier oil. After only a thousand miles or two, your 5w30 in your truck is probably around a 5w20, and will eventually get down to a straight 5 weight if you leave it in there too long.

10w40's and 5w30's are particularly prone to this problem, because they require quite a large amount of VI's to function. If you put 10w40 in your truck, consider using a good diesel truck oil like a 15w40 Rotella that is much, much more stable than the passenger car 10w40, in addition to having a much better additive package that prevents wear in the engine. This additive package, however produces SLIGHTLY more emissions, so they are phased out of car oils, but the "Diesel" oils still have them.

Now thats out of the way, lets go onto synthetics. I don't want to get off on too much of a tangent, but not all synthetics are equal. Some synthetics, like some of the valvolines and pennzoils are not real synthetics, but merely a highly refined conventional oil that the government allows to be classified as synthetic. This is still a group III oil (conventional) and not a group IV oil (full synthetic.)

Anyways, a full synthetic is less affected by temperature than a conventional oil, by a HUGE margin. In a 10w50 or a 15w50 (it really doesn't matter) they simply take a synthetic base stock of straight 50 weight oil and essentially do nothing to it. Because it remains thin at cold temperatures and resists thinning at higher temperatures they don't have to start off with a thin oil and then add VI's to it.

This also means that because there are little to no VI's in synthetic oil, it is much more stable and longer lasting than a multi-grade conventional oil.

The fact that a Xw50 synthetic can pour down to -39 degrees, while a 5w20 pennzoil can only pour down to -33 degree is pretty amazing. It also tells you that a straight 50 weight synthetic is liquid at -33 degrees while the 5 weight conventional turned into a gel.

So that is why the first number does not matter in a FULLY SYNTHETIC oil. Because its really just a straight weight oil. The general public would have a hard time getting their minds off multi-grade oil numbers so the oil manufacturers put the first number on there to confuse people less. They simply put any old number at the front that most people would be comfortable with, or they think they would prefer, but its pretty much all the same.

Here is a link to the thread...John http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/show ... p?t=140465
__________________
2004 Aprilia Tuono
2001 Ducati Monster S4
Last edited by CETME; 02-08-2008 at 08:20 AM.
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[johnny2tents]

Iceman, Good stuff, read it a couple of times before it sunk in! The cynic in me wants to go back to my physics/chemistry roots, get out the burette and check the viscosity claims at 0 and 100 deg C. Oil has undoubtedly improved since the early days of the multigrade. I remember stripping bike engines run on Duckhams 20w/50 in the 60's and finding grey sludge and green crystals in the rocker covers! Like Boilermaker though, I don't like like the concept of 'any old number' at the low end of the temp scale. There must be an actual figure? Also the ability of the oil molecules not to sheer under load is vitally important in a modern close tolerance plain bearing motor. Has stirred a few unused grey cells anyway! Regards J2T

[tomtom]

As much as i find it interesting. I thought i was reading New Scientist. Hang on until i put my geek specs on.
On a light hearted subject about oils. Driving up to North CApe in Norway and I was pretty far north. I spot a Moto guzzi stopped at the side of the shore road, with a pretty girl sitting beside it. (only stopped because of the girl).
Story turns out to be they were a german couple who decided to do an oil change on the bike. The girl and her boyfriend had stopped at the petrol station and bought 5 litres of oil and carried out an oil change .

The norwegian pump attendant is waving his hands and shouting profanities (swearing to you and me) but as the girls boyfriend couldn't speak norwegian he thought the attendant was just being rude to him because he was German (don't mention the war) so he carrys on doing the oil change.

Few miles up the road bike makes funny noises and smells funny. They stop the bike , boyfriend hitches lift back to garage only to discover that he'd just filled up with pure cooking vegetable oil. He didn't know the petrol station sold oil for cooking to the locals .

About a week later rounded a bend to see a sign , local delicacy deep fried conrods with rings.

True story apart from last sentence and i did see them geting the bike restarted.

[Linegeist]

I remember stripping bike engines run on Duckhams 20w/50 in the 60's and finding grey sludge and green crystals in the rocker covers!

Ah! That'll be the dilithium crystals for the warp drive engines. Take 'em out and you only have impulse power left.

Few miles up the road bike makes funny noises and smells funny. They stop the bike , boyfriend hitches lift back to garage only to discover that he'd just filled up with pure cooking vegetable oil. He didn't know the petrol station sold oil for cooking to the locals .

You may well laugh - but I run my ancient diesel Citroen on cooking oil ....................

smlcit.jpg (13.12 KiB) Viewed 7770 times

.......................and it runs perfectly at a fraction of pump fuel.

[iceman]

Iceman, Good stuff, read it a couple of times before it sunk in! The cynic in me wants to go back to my physics/chemistry roots, get out the burette and check the viscosity claims at 0 and 100 deg C. Oil has undoubtedly improved since the early days of the multigrade. I remember stripping bike engines run on Duckhams 20w/50 in the 60's and finding grey sludge and green crystals in the rocker covers! Like Boilermaker though, I don't like like the concept of 'any old number' at the low end of the temp scale. There must be an actual figure? Also the ability of the oil molecules not to sheer under load is vitally important in a modern close tolerance plain bearing motor. Has stirred a few unused grey cells anyway! Regards J2T

True enough,It's my understanding a lot of sheer takes place in the gearbox on a wet clutch motor.

I just remember reading this about a year ago and just thought I'd share it as food for thought,not as on so many Moto forums an out of control oil thread.

So far so good. It will be interesting to hear what boilermaker/George can find out from his friend.

I don't like like the concept of 'any old number' at the low end of the temp scale.

According to the author CTME it is of very little significance which is why I thought I'd try and stir those grey cells and see what you all think.The internet is a beautiful thing as you can pick someones brain without leaving the house.You couldn't do that when I was a kid !

[DAVID THOMPSON]

i switched to oil in may when i bought a used 2004 VW new beetle that runs on diesel
twice the mpg of my truck and better than the 660 traveller most days
dave
here in the usa most stations color the fill hose handle green on the diesel pump

[iceman]

You may well laugh - but I run my ancient diesel Citroen on cooking oil ....................

smlcit.jpg

.......................and it runs perfectly at a fraction of pump fuel. [/quote]

How old is that ancient diesel Citroen ?

It's got a lot of glass and look real clean.