removing the counter balance shaft

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removing the counter balance shaft

Postby spadesup420 » Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:43 pm

so my baggy is dead right now and its bcuz the counter balance shaft gear broke its key went out of time and hit the connecting rod and broke the case at the counter balance shafts bearing housings if that makes sense haha so now im thinking if i cant get the raptor center crankcases to work ill just take out the counter balance shaft which ive heard from yamaha will increase in a lil power anyway
any comments all are welcome anyone ever hear of the 660 working with out the counter balancer and what needs to be done to compensate for the vibration?
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Re: removing the counter balance shaft

Postby Bill Jurgenson » Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:06 am

Join the club!!!

dunno how often I have warned about this. there must a book on the subject here in the archives. Over at the Yahoo MZ owner's group, too.
Proper care would have alleviated this. The subject has been amply covered in virtually all forums covering any of the XTZ engined bikes, whether in English, French, Dutch or German.

And likewise there are several pages on running without the balancer shaft and what (not) to do for this.
I ran over 50tkm (of the 80tkm on the clock) of my street Skorpion without the balancer. That bike and engine are still being used as a gentleman racer without rebuild.
My racer didn't have one either - nor a flywheel, either.
The balancer needs ± 5hp for itself during acceleration. It is commonly argued that there is no difference with and without on the dyno. That is true but irrelevant because the dyno rating is taken at constant rpm. Unlike at the salt flats, street bikes don't run at constant rpm except on German Autobahns.

My present Skorpion has a lightened balancer but the next version of that one-off engine will probably be without again.
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Re: removing the counter balance shaft

Postby handsomejackuk » Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:00 pm

got me a bit worried now have got 25,000 milkes on my Baggy.. what is involved in removing the balance shaft ?

is it an engine out job, or can it be done in the frame ?

thinking of taking the baghira off the road for a few months, so may be a summer project, as i have loads of other bikes to ride...

Al..
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Re: removing the counter balance shaft

Postby spadesup420 » Wed Mar 21, 2012 8:42 pm

handsomejackuk wrote: as i have loads of other bikes to ride...

Al..

must be nice wanna lemme borrow one to get to work hahahaha
my bike has 23xxx miles i found an xtz660 crankcase right side for
around 200 bucks i got in touch with grahams motorcycles made a
list of parts i need and now im waiting on a price list probably gonna
be super expensive thru them though for all new stuff i sent slipstream an
email to get the solid drive gear to help prevent this from happening again
dam spring loaded gears hahaha the other person bill that commented here
look on his profile he has another thread about this with alot of good info
i still havent gotten to the bottom of the counter weightless path looking
for more info
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Re: removing the counter balance shaft

Postby Bill Jurgenson » Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:58 am

reading texts proves to be a challenge...

get the gear for Yamaha directly. It is a standard part and costs 50% lass than the same gear from Slipstream.

Either Raptor 700 or XT660R if you live in Europe.
Can't for the life of me understand why anyone would bother with Graham's unless one live in the UK.
Yamaha parts are Yamaha parts. period.

iof one thinks he is up to putting a wrench to the motor, there is no excuse for not knowing which part is which and in which models Yamaha uses it.
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Re: removing the counter balance shaft

Postby spadesup420 » Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:10 am

Bill Jurgenson wrote:reading texts proves to be a challenge...

get the gear for Yamaha directly. It is a standard part and costs 50% lass than the same gear from Slipstream.

Either Raptor 700 or XT660R if you live in Europe.
bill,
what do you have to do to run with out the counter weight?
if i could find out how it would save me alot of money
Can't for the life of me understand why anyone would bother with Graham's unless one live in the UK.
Yamaha parts are Yamaha parts. period.

iof one thinks he is up to putting a wrench to the motor, there is no excuse for not knowing which part is which and in which models Yamaha uses it.

bill,
what do you have to do to run with out the counter weight?
if i could find out how it would save me alot of money
thanks for the info i live in the USA. grahams is the only place that i have found mz part #s every yamaha dealer i talk to says theyr parts dont work and the yamaha xtz parts i ask for they cant order because its yamaha europe i ask can you help me get in touch with yamaha europe and they say no
im kinda lost
i found an xtz crankcase on ebay europe should i go with that its right side only and about 200 bucks usd
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Re: removing the counter balance shaft

Postby edec » Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:51 pm

Where abouts the U.S. are you spadesup420?
Ed in CA
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Re: removing the counter balance shaft

Postby spadesup420 » Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:25 pm

edec wrote:Where abouts the U.S. are you spadesup420?
Ed in CA

sacramento ca 95815
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Re: removing the counter balance shaft

Postby handsomejackuk » Tue Jun 05, 2012 3:07 pm

need some more info on this... ??? in the process of doing some remedial work to my baghira...

Al..
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Re: removing the counter balance shaft

Postby Bill Jurgenson » Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:48 am

http://cembalobill.blogspot.de/2007/12/balancer-shaft-and-myths.html

http://www.mzriders.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5819&p=29971&hilit=balancershaft#p29971

you cannot simply remove the balancer.

based on my experience without a balancer (but with non rotating dummies) in two different engines and with lightened resp. rotating shafts without a weight, I can say that you are best off with the weightless "balancer", i.e. removing the weight entirely from the OEM balancer and reinstalling it. You no longer need a solid gear on the crank for it.
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Re: removing the counter balance shaft

Postby Henry74 » Sat Mar 04, 2017 4:44 pm

Bill, I have the engine out and dismantled. I only have to separate the crankcase. If I separate them , get the balancer out , machine the counter weight and place it back(counter weightless) would it run properly? Do I have to worry about oil lubrication ?
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Re: removing the counter balance shaft

Postby edfmaniac » Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:13 pm

Bill is not around anymore but I can tell you that he has written about this somewhere in here. You just need a rotating tube where the counter balance shaft is to keep the oil system working so machining it down will work. The bike will shake like a leaf at certain rpms but will be smoother at other rpms. Might want to read more. I remember telling myself I would only machine half of the weight off if I was going to take the modifications that far. Not really something that would be beneficial in my opinion unless you are going to do work elsewhere. Wheels are a big deal on the Skorpion becasue they are so damn heavy. I'm pretty sure Bill said that's one of the first things you should replace when looking for performance improvements. Nothing is a direct swap though. I had to spend a few years looking for the right wheels and brake plates, etc.
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Re: removing the counter balance shaft

Postby edfmaniac » Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:26 pm

Read that first link at blogspot.de. He talks about rpms ranges, vibration and theory.
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Re: removing the counter balance shaft

Postby Henry74 » Tue Mar 07, 2017 7:15 am

Thanks Edf,
I am only going to do the job for 2 reasons.
ist I got the engine apart,
second I rev its nuts out hehehe. Malta 's roads are short so its always accelerating and decelerating.

I am thinking about wheels too. but SZR are expensive, I tried to find some TZ wheels but i cant find any at the moment.

I will try to make a good find out through this forum, since I can machine parts myself.

thanks again :)
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Re: removing the counter balance shaft

Postby edfmaniac » Tue Mar 07, 2017 9:21 am

I finally found a set of the SZR wheels after watching ebay for a long time. They weren't very expensive. Then the guy that powder coated them dropped one coming out of the oven. :evil: Fortunately he was honest enough to tell me about it and have it sent to a professional to be repaired instead of just hammering it back into place. It wasn't that bad so he probably could have got away with it. You must use the SZR rear brake plate if you go with the SZR wheels so keep that in mind. They are hard to find as well. I lucked out by posting for help over at caferacer.net
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