Are 2 strokes doomed?

[Andy_C]

Given the move to try and save the planet, what are the thoughts here that at some point government legislation might be introduced to ban 2 stroke engines.

Just wondering if we may end up being forced off the road in this way.

Am I being pessimistic?

[Blurredman]

I think you're being pessimistic..


In this country at least, banning or legislation is not retro-active, and never has been. Meaning that anything that was made before X date of change of legislation can continue to be used, even though the 'new' production of that particular item might be outlawed.

This is why my older car doesn't require a foglamp on the rear, and why older cars still (pre '65 in this country) are allowed red rear indicators, and why bikes pre 1985 don't need indicators, or why a few years before that only one brake light switch is required. It all peters down over the years and becomes a non-issue as the filtration effect occurs.. How many 2t's do you seriously see every day? I bet only your own..

In recent times I can think of things like reverse lights and DRL lamps being mandatory in new cars, and although an option in my 2012 car, I have it turned off, and what about cars that don't have a middle brake light? You no longer see a car without them because as time passes and the legislation changes, the previous allowance on vehicles becomes less and less as those older vehicles dwindle.

Looking at general statistics, emissions directly on our roads have basically halfed since the early 90's on our roads, the progressively aggressive stance towards older vehicles seems to be working, just like the stigma of smoking, which of course 'everyone' used to do. Though I think anyone who buys a new car or bike every 3 years are the problem themselves, and not someone who keeps a car 20 or 30 years.

[Andy_C]

Perfectly fair what you say, but perhaps it is the pessimist in me thinking that the "save the planet" brigade might convince governments otherwise - and I hope not.

You are right 2Ts are few and far between, the amount that I saw this year I could probably count on one hand, you are also right that people who buy a new car every 3 years or so are a bigger part of the problem.

It will be interesting to see where we are in another 10 years time assuming we are all stil here...........

[Puffs]

Ta for that BM. There was a discussion particularly on indicators a little while back. And indeed, my '76 Jawa only has a brake switch on the R brake.

You do see some 50cc 2T moped scooters, and 2T off-road bikes. But I admit, 2t motorbikes on the road: they are mostly mine. So 2-strokes shouldn't become a major political issue.

On your last point, a long while back I learned that cars roughly cost as much energy to produce, as they will use during their life time on the road. Let's not forget that the production of iron ranks with the highest ecological footprints.
But of course, if someone buys a new car after just 3 years, that does not mean his 'old' car is wasted; it'll be used elsewhere. But indeed, what it does mean is that using your car (or motorbike!) as long as possible, is a very Greta-friendly thing to do, and should be encouraged.

Most cars (and other items) are often discarded because the repair/maintenance costs outweigh their commercial value (alternatively because they want something bigger & more luxurious, but that is probably less common). In the west, manpower costs are generally the main component of repair costs (remember that manpower costs are also included in the production of replacement parts). We keep our bikes running indefinitely because we do the work ourselves, and apparently we don't mind doing the work for free.
Anyway, high wages are unecological because they encourage early replacement, and thereby enhance the need for resources and increase pollution.

On the retro-active bit: that may vary from country to country (though I recently learned that apparently EU legislation takes precedence of local legislation...), and here, like with stocks, experiences from the past may not determine what happens in the future. Rules may change. Think of smoking in various places, over the years.

In various metropoles in the world, local governments have started low emission zones. Explicit rules vary, but the general idea is to ban polluting vehicles from densely populated areas. Since a couple of years now, vehicles get, in Europe, an environmental classification, Euro 5 is the latest for motorbikes. This EU* rating is part of the vehicle registration, and vehicles not complying with the latest criteria will not be approved for road use (which is why there are no new 2T motorbikes, or cars) in the EU. And then smart cameras check your environmental level from your number plate when you enter such a zone. To my knowledge it is not really banned anywhere, yet, but what does happen is that your wallet is drained. Particularly if you own a classic vehicle in such a big city, you're fcked. Recently there was a big protest of classic car owners, because in some cities they saw their annual fixed costs increase by 1000%, while they normally drive less than a 1000 miles per year (and not in the city!). Anyway, if you're interested: https://www.lez-belgium.be/en/ (yes my taxes paid for making this)

An earlier thread relevant for this topic is viewtopic.php?f=19&t=11627

[alexxx]

The eco idiots will always find the next thing they want to prevent yet they fail to look at their own consumption.
You see them protesting all with i phones and nylon tents, they are mostly clad in synthetics, they could not live without the benefits that oil and the internal combustion engine has brought them, you just need to point it out to them.
Even their sandals and bicycles come from huge oily factories and then transported by huge ships then trucks
I bought my two stroke as an antidote to all this nonsense and I will use it as often as I like.
One benefit is that a lot of the political power makers also own classic cars and bikes (house of lord types here in the UK), they will not legislate themselves off the road.
Will two strokes be banned? I don't think so as most people have no idea what they are, think of all the vintage cars and bikes that would also have to be banned under pollution restrictions.
I will be burning coal in my home this winter, cheap and plentiful, I may even add some two stroke oil to the mix

[Puffs]

My €0.02: if mankind wants to survive we'll have to finally realise and accept it is on a doomsday course, and adapt that course. In what sense, and if it can effectively change, are entirely different matters, and I don't think our 2Ts will have much impact either way.
Yet they may become collateral casualties.

[Andy_C]

Puffs - I'll go along with that, my concern is if our 2T do become collateral casualties.

In the meantime.......enjoy.

[Gerryman Ts125]

Diesels are banned from clean air areas. So all oil burners are also. The cops have been issuing clean air acts for nigh on twenty years in the U. K. (if they can see you) the type of oil consumed by 2t engines, has improved over the years, but the burnt oil before insineration is cancerous, and that's what they are banning never mind removing from roads.

You can still use a 2t engine now. But after COP26 (thank you Glasgow) will see them banned. Put it this way would you allow your child in a enclosed space with two ot three high revving 2t's

No not me either, that's why I sold my Mz ts, they're noisy, smelly compared to other more modern 2 cycle engines, and have had their time. So time to leave the planet. To be turned into a museum piece or placed on a platter in your den or garage, or turned into paperweights.
Even the ones with metered oil pumps.

I will stick to burning wet wood and painted/creosote coated wood and coal for now. And I have removed my Adiblu goats piss urea system from my Citroën and had a Dpf service. So I can pollute Glasgow, as much, if not more (legally) than when I used to drive my countless 2t's.

On the road and off of it.

I say put some knobbley's and hi-riserbars on your 2t bikes and ride them off road. I don't have any children, never wanted to have any, so I'm not up for saving this whirlling smote of dust for anybodies children. That's my take on this.

[Andy_C]

Interesting take on this Gerryman.

Lets wait an see what COP26 comes up with, cant see any legislation that they introduce will get put in place overnight - that would be a miracle.

I would have thought that continuiing to burn wet wood and painted/creosote coated wood and coal is probably more harmful to the environment than riding an MZ, but I am no scientist.

[alexxx]

If they ever thought to ban two strokes they will have to ban every vehicle pre 60s also as most old cars and bikes of that era burnt a fair bit oil, no more london to brighton runs etc.
Large ships can use two stroke diesel engines, will the lentil munchers not want their sandals delivered?
I am optimistic that as classic vehicles are in the minority and often not in daily use they will be left alone. Here in the UK vehicles are exempt from mot and tax if over 40 yrs, that was a good move likely proposed by some lord toffingham type who wanted to drive his classic collection with less hassle. I am sure we will be left alone as living history nutters and so we should be.
The UK gov will eventually decide electric cars were a bad idea, just like diesels, as long as people keep buying new that is all they care about. Governments should never advise on what vehicles are suitable.
I can argue successfully my MZ is more environmentally sustainable than any tesla which can often have coal generated electrons inside it but as long as they are polluting remotely then it all looks good.
If anyone is selling their MZ 250, yamaha RD400 etc cheap right now to avoid the rush to sell, I am a buyer..lets see

[Blurredman]

Here in the UK vehicles are exempt from mot and tax if over 40 yrs, that was a good move likely proposed by some lord toffingham type who wanted to drive his classic collection with less hassle. I am sure we will be left alone as living history nutters and so we should be.

It was actually in the late 80's (I believe) that vehicles 25 years and older had the opportunity not to pay tax in our country. But in 1996 when New Labour came in, they 'froze' the legislation meaning it didn't roll on every year.. So.. from 1996 until recent years, a vehicle that was only older than 1973 could apply for tax exemption. Anyway.. By the time 25 years came to 40 the current government finally put the legislation back into force, and rolling.
It's pretty unfair really, because an awful lot of western countries around the world, have exemptions for vehicles 25 years old, and in most of europe I believe it is 30 years. We do however have the addition that we don't require MOT's for historic vehicles, which is something we didn't have previously..

My advice to anyone is, if you have a vehicle coming up to 40 years old. BE QUICK and make it exempt as soon as you can.. Because the legislation may get frozen again, and you could be paying tax/mot for that vehicle for many decades more...

[Puffs]

On the tax exemption elsewhere, I'm not sure if it's true what you're saying BM. In B there is no age-related exemption, in NL it's 40 years, others I do not know.
On the up side, here in B we do not pay roadtax on bikes of 250cc & below, regardless of their age, and bikes do not (yet) require an MOT. Regardless of tax, I'd still like to have an RD400, or even better: a Kawa triple, as some here have...

[Gerryman Ts125]

Lets wait an see what CAPUT26 comes up with, cant see any legislation that they introduce will get put in place overnight - that would be a miracle.

If I'm still alive in 2045, when zero emissions are passed. No one will be able to be even mildly flatulent on the street. Or they will be fined by flying police drones. So don't see many oil burners on the road after that.

(2050) total zero Ppm, ban comes in. So maybe all vintage vehicles (made circa 1980) will have electric propulsion. Or a fuel cell. And Hmg may give you bursaries towards such outlays.
I did say Maybe.
If the grandkid of Covid 19 hasn't mutated and killed all of the over 70's, dead by then
P. s. People,, not vehicles. Or both.

Pps. The environment doesn't really bother me much, being a Glaswiegian, I have lived with the fear that some forgien group or government, will blow up all the post and latest nuclear bombs (for submarine use) hidden in the hillsides of the Holy LOCK (only 25miles away
I will be melted into a bit of burning old chewing gum, by them.
As I do not trust anything governments say, or pretend to say to Joe public.

[Puffs]

Yes, well the other thing that occurred to me on this issue is that while our 2-strokes are really quite unimportant, in the wider scheme of things, it actually doesn't matter much what we do in Europe. See https://www.worldometers.info/co2-emiss ... y-country/ and particularly the nice dynamic graph in https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-57483492 . China emits close to a third of the world's CO2, and while their plan was to become carbon neutral by 2060 (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... -quicktake , https://www.carbonbrief.org/china-brief ... imate-ties ), they're having problems finding the energy they need for their development, and continue to build coal stations. (China still has significant coal reserves.)

[Guesi]

Well, everyone says Why should we begin to reduce CO2, the others should begin......

And what happens ?
No one begins and nothing changes...

So climate change will go on....

I saw a statistic:

When you are 50 and older, you will see 1,5 " celsius change in the rest of your life

When you are 30 and older, you will see 2 degress

When you are 10-25, you will see 3 degrees.


So maybe we should do it for our children ....and grandchildren.

And I don´t care who is the first to change...

Change always begins with YOU.
No matter in what matter....